Our Young Women President wants me to teach them how to sign the Young Women theme. I wish people would stop thinking I know how to do these things. Is it best to learn it in ASL or Signed English? If ASL, then I have no clue how to do it. If Signed English, then I don't know how to sign some of the words.

Also, I want to show some people how the ASL hymns do not match the hymns in the book.

For the ASL hymn on page 116, "Come Follow Me", would it be correct to tell them that the first verse is signed like this:

Savior say “Come follow me
Come we will follow His walk
This only way we can unite
with God His dear Son

(and tell them the first quotes are signed).

Julia,

Our local ward has asked my wife and I to do this several times. I did ASL and PSE translations several years ago, but now we just default to the standardized Church's Young Womens' Theme in ASL. Go to www.ldscatalog.com and do a search for product # 35224010. The ASLYWT is easy to follow and best of all, its free. Go to your local Distribution Center (you're in Tooele, right, so the closest one is here and pick one up. If you don't get into Salt Lake often, you can order it via CC and have it mailed to you.

Hope that helps.

I'm not sure I understand your question; are you asking if its correct to tell them these words in this order? or if this is the correct order? (The answer to the latter is, of course, yes.) Personally, I would answer "no" to the first question; if your ward members are accustomed to hearing "Come, follow me, the Savior said..." (which I'm sure they are) then telling them English words in a different order will probably confuse them.

Are these people you're teaching familiar with ASL's sentence structure? If they're not, then it shouldn't matter what order (or frankly, language) they use. You're teaching them to perform the hymn 'phonetically,' much like actors do when they memorize lines in a foreign language.

As I watch Sister Hix perform from the DVD, I'm noticing that she is signing this in 4/4 time so it shouldn't be too much of a stretch for your hearing ward members to sign in this order while maintaining a 4/4 time structure in their heads.

I suppose how you teach depends on what you're trying to teach. If the goal is to teach meaning and ASL structure by analyzing a ASL hymn translation, then you can show how ASL grammar follows a topic/comment format. If the goal is to teach a group of people how to sign an ASL translation of a hymn, then teaching them 'phonetically' is probably easier for them to understand and do.

Was that at all helpful?

Can I give you a big hug? I searched on lds.org before and could only find the printed version of the Young Women Theme. The people in my ward do not realize that I did not grow up in the Church. Young Women and everything before that is unfamiliar to me. Anyway, thanks for the link.

I might print your answer to my question about the ASL hymns. It would show them that I am in way over my head. Seriously, I am drowning. My husband is the only deaf person in our ward. He does not know or use ASL. He uses Contact Signed English. He understands the Priesthood ordinances in Signed English, but not in ASL. Everyone thinks he can read lips and that I can interpret for him (I know a few signs so of course I can interpret for him in church). We are trying to correct their assumptions and it is not easy. I have never in my life dealt with so many stubborn people.

We are now teaching a Sign Language class with the intent of teaching them how to communicate with my husband and make them more aware of Deaf culture (which is where I think he belongs but he is too stubborn to admit it). We are teaching contact signing because that is what he uses. We already explained that ASL is not signed English. I wanted to give them an example by showing them the first verse of this hymn. Also to show them that when someone asks me to teach them how to sign a hymn or the Young Women's Theme, they are asking me to teach in a language I do not know.

Do you think this will help them?

Shame on them. Kind of a bummer about living in Utah wards: everyone thinks everyone should know everything. Sorry about that. Your experience is a good reminder for all church members.


This may sound arrogant, especially in that I've never met you or your husband, but I'd bet he uses a bit more ASL (and has far more "Deaf cultural" beliefs, behaviors, and morès) than he or you realize. This actually may be a good topic for the board (we'd put it in another place, of course): defining what is ASL and what is not.


Sing it, sister. :) I wonder if your ward is acting under the "duck" principle: "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then it's probably a duck." If your husband's behaviors around members of the ward lead them to think he "hears" just as they do, perhaps that might explain their reticence to adjust their ways of communication. This doesn't mean your husband should go out get a couple of tattoos and grow his hair long, i.e. change his behavior, but it might explain why ward members think that they don't need to do anything.

I thought about an interesting experiment for your next SL class: Walk in and start talking (no signing, but no voicing either) and observe their reactions. (This would be best with another spoken foreign language, but this way should do too.) When they start asking you what you're saying, enunciate your talking (remember, still no signing or voicing) and see how that goes over. Perhaps five minutes in a situation where they are left out of conversations and grasping at meaning will give you some shared experience you can build on.

The point here isn't to minimize them, nor even to emphasize silence (because that's not totally realistic either) but to put them in an uncomfortable position for a few minutes and observe them trying to adjust. (That would be fun at the beginning of a sacrament meeting or PH/RS talk too, but I digress...)


Personally, I appreciate your honesty behind the motives of your class: teaching X language/code/handflappythingy to help them communicate with your husband. And, as a corollary, I think your husband ought to be teaching the class, that way he'll be communicating his needs to ward members.

There's a really easy tangent to go off on here and advocate for ASL (and nothing less than ASL) classes that are X weeks in length and utilize Y curriculum and fully indoctrinate all students in all aspects of Deaf culture and way of life. But then there's reality: the only teachers who have the expertise here don't use that language or necessarily subscribe to all of those tenets of the culture.

It seems to me there are two goals here (one overt and one less so): there are varieties of pedagogy you could implement to do this but ultimately, (1) what students of the class ought to be able to do is put together sentences to say "Hi, Brother Shumko, how are you today?" and "How about those Jazz?" and "How was your hometeaching this month?" and "Can you help put chairs away?" and "Would you say the opening prayer today?"; (2) find someone in the ward or stake who has the desire to go further and begin developing interpretation skills.


Here's where I get a little confused: you say that neither your husband nor you use ASL per se, but you're trying to convince students that ASL is not signed English? If your husband doesn't really function in ASL anyway, what is the reason behind the linguistics lesson? If you're demonstrating variations of signed language and want to show how ASL uses a different structure to communicate equivalent concepts in English, that's one thing. But in the effort to clarify difference, difference, difference, it might be that the ward members get confused about what they're supposed to be learning and doing. Just a thought.

I agree with your feelings about "how to sign" X hymn or theme or scripture. My comment is typically something to the effect of "How do you want to learn that, in your language or theirs?" That's why I shy away from language like "Will you teach us how to sign that in ASL?" and, instead, ask questions to get at what is really being asked. I find less risk in teaching someone "how to sign X" instead of teaching someone "how to sign X in ASL." The latter requires far more preprogramming and explaining something that will more than likely not even be remembered ("pearls before swine," indeed).

In re-reading my comments before I posted, I recognize that some of my comments may sound callous and flippant and I really don't mean them to be. Even in one of the largest Deaf units in the Church (where I live) and working around stake members who have seen Deaf members for twenty-plus years, these issues are still faced. In fact, one of my recurring interpreting assignments is for a person, who much like your husband, functions very little in ASL. The "duck" principle is very much in force in these situations and so I/we deal with continual education (to all parties involved). I know that isn't much consolation but I mention it to show you that you are doing what you can with what you have. Three cheers for you.

I suppose my thoughts reflect my journey in the community and language; I used to worry that something wasn't ASL enough for those for whom I was interpreting. Now I care less about something's ASL-ness that and worry more that what I sign and/or interpret to/for isn't what was meant in the first place.

Thanks for your story. I hope you keep sharing.

I have received feedback that explains the duck principle, as well as the assumption that I can and should interpret everything, and just plain old fear. How anyone could be afraid of my husband is beyond me. Our class is helping to straighten out the assumptions at least for the people who are in the class. I am grateful for those people.

I am still concerned however that our leaders and teachers are not learning what they need to learn. I may have at least helped our bishop to understand that this is serious to me, even if it might not be to my husband.

By the way, I appreciate your posts on our blog. Steve and I do want to visit your ward sometime. I will let you know when we come so you can watch out for us.

What are the chances of you (or someone) coming to our ward and having a chat with our ward leaders?

Better yet, what are the chances of my husband getting a real interpreter on Sundays? (We live in Stansbury Park, not Tooele.)

It's funny you mentioned tattoos. My husband has 3 of them.

Yeah, I read your post on this; it strikes me to ask if you have any people in your ward/stake who speak Spanish or any other non-English language conversationally. You might find an ally in asking that person or people what it means to interpret and/or translate in their language. The insistence, however, from the one sister is hard to read about: it's one thing to disagree politely but its quite another insist that someone is incorrect, even if that person knows nothing about what he/she is disagreeing. Sorry you had to go through that. It seems to me that your class is probably where all this starts, the ladders get put up against the wall there. Ultimately too, perhaps you work towards seeking inspiration about people that might be encouraged or called by the bishop to attend your (or other) classes. There is power in Providence.


Shouldn't be hard now, looking for tattoos and all. :) We start at 1 pm; you can get specific info from here and other goodies from here.


I think you'll find lots of very experienced folks right here on this board who have trod the path you're treading and have found what has and has not worked in their units. Robin and Jess in Kalamazoo do excellent jobs in their group and Chad and Brianna in Colorado are working through similar situations. I'm also reminded of Adelle's situation in New Zealand; she and her group in Auckland are having almost identical concerns to yours and they're doing it without any SL curriculum (the Church hasn't produced any NZSL videos yet).


You could always ask students at the ITP at Salt Lake Community College who are (1) LDS and (2) are willing to make the drive around the mountain to Stansbury.

ok, Doug. I received the video of the Young Women Theme in ASL. I have it mostly figured out, except for one little spot. Right after she signs "We will prepare strong home family" is she signing "magnify"?

So it would be "magnify sacred covenants"?

(You're probably going to get more than you asked for here. Sorry.)

She signs (not corrected for transcription):

WE WILL PREPARE(1) STRONG(2) FAMILY, (hon)AGREE(3)+OBEY SACRED COVENANT(4), RECEIVE ORDINANCE FROM TEMPLE AND ENJOY BLESSING EXALT/LIFT-UP(5).

So you're looking for AGREE+OBEY SACRED COVENANT. AGREE and OBEY are formed here almost as a compound sign (whether they should or should not is another topic) and so the two signs don't appear fully enunciated.

A couple of notes on pronunciation:

(1) IMHO, I believe that the sign PREPARED needs to be revisited in the translation; the way that the English script uses this word, it doesn't mean 'to prepare,' or 'get something ready.' Paraphrasing the line in the YW theme—"...as we do (x) and (y), we will be prepared to (a), (b), (c), and (d)..."—'will be prepared' is somewhat semantically awkward. 'We will be prepared to' should (according to the OED definition of 'prepare' = "able to do or deal with something") be signed CAN/ABLE, or "be able to.' The sign PREPARE as used in this part of the YW theme seems to connotate 'preparing to,' and not 'be prepared to.' Subtle, but, major semantic difference. Deaf signers, in my experience, tend to use signs like CAN, FINISH, READY, etc. to refer to one's "ab[ility] to do or deal with something," not PREPARE. Cokely (1992) would call this a 'source language intrusion.'

(2) In this translation, I believe STRONG (meaning 'strengthen' here) needs to be signed while leaning forward just a bit, to imply that that strengthening is directed towards other parties (literally, strengthening family members).

(3) AGREE here is signed directionally to spatially agree with the objects of the verb: 'God' and 'man.' 'Make,' in the English script, obviously is not a literal command to 'make' something; one does not fabricate or manufacture a covenant. One enters into an agreement, hence the sign AGREE-with here.

(4) Again, IMHO, I believe COVENANT needs to be altered here; the English script uses 'covenants,' but the sign has not been made plural. We make more than one covenant.

(5) The sign EXALT/LIFT-UP shown here should not be staggered but have both hands level with each other as they are raised up.

Thanks. AGREE and OBEY makes more sense. I appreciate the other info as well.

The ASL version is different in some spots (like AGREE + OBEY) than what I was teaching them. This will be a test to see how much I can confuse them. Hopefully they will like the ASL version better because I do.